Nursing Chat-May 6,2020
[Note, video in beginning is degraded due to an initial poor connection]
Nursing Chat-Transcript
May 6, 2020
donnerwheeeler
Gail Donner: Thanks for joining us on this first of these nursing chats. Mary and
I are very pleased to be doing this, I'm Gail and, you know who Mary is, I
think most of you know that we've been doing nursing work and consulting and
coaching and career planning and development for close to 30 years.
We wanted to do something to try to be
helpful to everyone who's working at this particular time, whether people are
working in the frontline or not, this affects everybody who's a nurse. So.
Who's, healthcare, worker. So we were looking for, something I thing we can do.
We thought maybe these forums might be of
help. So that's how nursing chats came to be. A little bit of our way to give
nurses an opportunity to talk to and support each other and tell their story.
So I think before we get started, maybe it
would help if everybody just give a quick little. Who I am and what I do. And a
little, why you decided to join, this evening or what you'd like this evening
to be about? Just something to kind of, center us and you together in this. So
do you want to start, Claudine?
Claudine Bennett: Sure. so I'm Claudine Bennett, and I normally am the manager, a
manager in public health in the family health division. And my portfolio
includes a whole bunch of stuff to do with, healthy eating and physical
activity in their early years, as well as support for, breastfeeding mothers.
And so that's what I normally. do. but I've been in public health for 20 years,
and before that I was a labor and delivery nurse for 10. So I'm a 31 or so
years as a nurse. but on March 3rd, I was asked if I would be the chief of
logistics for the COVID-19 response at peel public health. And, I just. I think
it's kind of a neat role and I thought other people might be interested in
learning more about what's happening behind the scenes in public health, as
well as how we can really stretch ourselves with, wisdom and experience and
nursing, education. and background to do things like be the chief of logistics
for a huge pandemic response for the second largest health unit, in the
province.
So that's what I thought I would like to
chat about today.
Gail Donner: Terrific. Welcome and glad. Glad to have you. How about you
Georgina?
Georgina
MacDougall: So I'm, I'm a nurse at sick kids. I
started in infectious diseases at sick kids in 89 and I'm still in infectious
diseases, but I'm in the ambulatory setting for the past 19 years, working in the
HIV program and worked very closely with a lot of your nurses in peel public
health.
Gail Donner: Cathy. Welcome.
Cathy Szabo: Thanks. I'm, I'm the president and CEO of Providence care and, we
have a long-term care home with 243 beds. We have a hospital that has 270 beds,
but we've increased our capacity for COVID surge. So we now have an additional
203 beds. So now our hospital has. 473 beds from 270 and we run 22 community
programs, mostly in the mental health world, but we have supportive housing, adult
living.
We have, adult day programs. We partner and
manage something called Oasis, which is a senior living, a congregate setting
with apartment buildings where we have a coordinator that's there that keeps
people healthy and keeps them out of the healthcare system. That's the goal
there. And we also are responsible for the hospice in our neck of the woods.
So in our hospital, here, we are the only
subacute, non-acute hospital in our region or regional center for, mental
health, rehab, complex care and palliative care. Prior to that, I spent a good
part of my career, probably close to, ah, I want to say close to 40 years.
being in the community. So I worked at Saint Elizabeth health care for about 20
years, and then I ran CCACs.
I ran the Peel CAC. I was the first CEO,
and I, when I was at Saint Eliz, I was in peel. Plus I was moved around a bit
by the ministry. So in the end I ran five CCACs, putting them together, taking
them apart, rebuilding them, taking pieces of this or that one, and and making
it work for whatever government of the day wanted, whatever direction it would
be.
So I've been doing that.
Gail Donner: Great, and welcome to you too, Cathy. So welcome everybody. I think.
I'll put it this way. We have a small but mighty group with a lot of experience
and expertise. So I'm looking forward to the conversation. I'm, we, we have
until nine o'clock, as you all know.
So just short of an hour now, and the time
is yours. I'm going to turn it over to Mary to just help us get started and
look forward to, a good discussion.
Mary Wheeler: Thanks Gail. I guess my opening question, and if it's, I'm going to
direct it to Claudine first, but it's a question I would ask, both later,
Georgina and Cathy, that question, how are you. And the reason I'm asking, how
are you, is the Claudine and I reconnected through LinkedIn? She's part of my,
group and I have been reading her posts and she talked about the job.
Oh. She had to manage and how it was
affecting her personally. And so when we put these nursing chats out, Claudine
was the first one to come and said, I'd really like to, to talk about it. So
I, even though there's all of us on the
call, the question is you to Claudine is really how are you, what's going on?
And what is your story? And, and I think
what's important for everybody, we're taping this. So other nurses at a later
time can, can hear it. Cause I think the stories and your experience are are
really key right now, so I really be curious, how are you doing, Claudine now?
Claudine Bennett: So, do I feel like I'm doing, doing pretty good?
I feel like I'm, you know, was took on a
role and sort of was asked to do a role that, I knew nothing about. And, and
really was, I would say at the beginning, kind of trepidatious about whether I
would be able to be successful in that role or not. You know, that little bit
of self doubt you have as you get piloted into something that you weren't
expecting. but I feel it's going well. I have to say that though. I think I put
this in a recent LinkedIn post. Actually, I'm working harder than I've ever
worked in my life. I have never worked this hard. I've never worked, five, six,
seven, eight, nine, 10, 13 hour days in a
row before.
and, so it is exhausting. And I, and I'm
doing my best to, you know, have some self care opportunities, go for walks,
talk to friends. But honestly, there's not a lot of time. So, I recharge when I
can, but I feel so committed to this work and I feel like if. If I can, if I,
if I can do this job to.
Yeah. You know, help the public health health
effort and to keep people safe and to save people from getting COVID-19, then
it's work that I must do.
Mary Wheeler: Okay.
Claudine Bennett: Yeah.
Mary Wheeler: So, also you manage, if I recall a stat, there's 70 staff that
you're also, have responsibility for. That's what I was getting in your feed.
So how are they doing?
What's going on there?
Claudine Bennett: So it's, so, it's such a strange situation to find myself in because
I'm, I'm a very high touch manager, so, in my normal, every day. Goings on in
my family health division, I know all my staff. I know their names, I know
about their kids. I know all kinds of stuff about them.
I talk to them over, in the pods at work.
And right now I have 70 people under me, many of whom I've never worked with
before, and some who I've never even met. Hmm. because it's a, it's a big
operation, this logistics work. And I have, some really great supervisors and
managers who are working sort of, in my, in my different branches.
And so, they're doing the higher touch work
with the, with the front line staff or the people who are doing all the
different tasks and responsibilities. But, it's just really strange for me not
to even know who, who, a lot of them are.
Mary Wheeler: Mm,
Claudine Bennett: yeah.
Mary Wheeler: So let, so why don't we listen to everybody's brief story and then
we'll come back to, to, to open it up to a larger conversation.
So I'm going to go next to Georgina because
she was the person that contacted me for sick kids, and I'm sure she didn't
know what she was getting in. She asked to be an observer. I'd love to be an
observer. And I said around the pandemic, and I said, well, why do you want to
be? Why don't you come on and join us?
And so immediately. You said, I'm, I'm
going to come on on as a participant. So again, with that, with that sense of
courage, not knowing what was going to happen, I really love to know a little
bit more about what you're doing, Georgina, and how. so where Claudine's out in
the community, you're now in, in acute care environment, what, what's, what's
that like for you?
And to help help us understand that?
Georgina
MacDougall: So I had wanted to be an observer
because I was feeling quite disconnected from the front lines and, wanted to,
Be here to support my colleagues in nursing, who are out there, who, who I feel
are out there, you know, braving this, this pandemic, I have to say, working at
sick kids, as I said earlier.
It hasn't been impacted by COVID. sick kids
is highly organized, professional, hospital. And so there's lots of, changes
that we've had to, embrace. but feel very safe going to the hospital. as I
mentioned earlier, I work in an outpatient setting, working with a highly
marginalized and disenfranchised group of people with, H having HIV.
so I find a lot of my time is spent.
convincing them that it's safe
to come to their clinic
appointments. it is something that we,
we've continued to see our patients, regularly, and using my trust relationship
that I've built with families. to convince them it's okay to come in and that
it's safe.
And yet at the same time, having this
trepidation.
How safe is it?
You know, I, you're, you're wearing both
hats. You're the professional. So at work I do feel safe, but then you come
home, you're bombarded with the media, you're bombarded with my family's
concerns for my safety. My husband in the first couple of weeks said, if you
want to retire, I'm okay.
Like you can step down if you want. And I'm
like. I wasn't even, even like, that hadn't even crossed my mind because I
didn't feel unsafe. so the whole time you're, and you got all this mixed
messaging of wear a mask, I don't wear a mask distance. Don't stay home, come
out. You're just. And trying to field all these questions.
I actually had a family tell me that one of
the symptoms of COVID was a GI, and I said, no, no, it's all respiratory, you
know, in the early weeks. And she's like, no,
I've heard it can be GI symptoms. And I'm like,
what do I know? I felt like a novice again, I felt like I hadn't, I'm in
infectious disease nurses for 30 years and I had no idea.
I just, I felt like I was. Just, learning
as everybody else is. Emotionally I felt, it's been quite a roller coaster, because
as I said, I, what if I'm wrong? What if I'm telling people it's safe to come
and they get sick or, and so you feel like. Yeah, I, I've been up and down and
I'm feeling overwhelmed with that responsibility and just managing the change.
Mary Wheeler: Well, similar to what Claudine talked about around this high
learning curve. So people that have, you know, even all of us on this call,
supposedly experts, but at this point in time, what I'm hearing you say,
Georgina and what Claudine said is like, I'm, it's the change, like how it's
managing this huge learning curve.
Georgina
MacDougall:, I think initially I was feeling like,
okay, it's the calm before the storm. I'm waiting for the flood Gates to open,
and, and, and you're like, pensive, you know? And then when it wasn't
happening, I was like, okay, well, where can I go and help?
You know, I feel like I should be doing
more. And so, yeah.
And so then when you're, and then when
you're getting all these accolades from the community at large of, you know.
frontline workers are heroes. And I'm like, I haven't done anything like I,
I want, you know, I felt like, like, no,
not
me. It's, it's other people, right.
Mary Wheeler: But you know, that's, that's how you're feeling.
But from just what you're describing, what
you do and that family who you know, was even describing to you what some of
the symptoms were or the cohort that you're working with. I bet in a small way,
you might not realize it, but you're there really supporting them in a very
crazy time also. Yeah.
Claudine Bennett: And you're going to work and you're going to work.
Yeah.
Georgina
MacDougall: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think that's,
for me is a saving grace too. I think, you know, getting out of the house and
getting away from the television and going
somewhere where
like minded people are functioning and
trying to do their day to day staff is, is definitely a godsend.
Claudine Bennett: Yeah.
Mary Wheeler: Thanks Georgina.
Cathy.
Cathy Szabo: So well, it is an emotional roller coaster. having worked through
SARS and I was lucky enough to be the lead for the community on SARS. And now
into COVID. COVID is a lot scarier. It's a lot more like the wind. You don't
know where it's going to show up. We've had four outbreaks, two in the
hospital, and two in our longterm care home, and our patients are really
vulnerable.
So we wanted to be, in a position a that
we never were positive, but that didn't happen. But then once we were, how did
we stop the spread? I don't think anybody's slept for two weeks. We found out
very quickly that this is a team sport. Our public health department is
unbelievable. And you know, we have a lot of, Support and a lot of praise for
public health in this part of the world. When they closed the restaurants, they
took all their food inspectors and turn them into nursing home inspectors, and
they all went into all of our longterm care homes along with a nurse manager.
And starting teaching them all about infection prevention and control and what
to look for.
And then our public health, chief medical
officer of health Karen Moore had a weekly teleconferences with all of the
medical advisors to make sure that they were having conversations with the
residents in longterm care around advanced directives and making sure they
understood infection prevention and control.
And Karen's been with us, you know, right.
By our side all the way along our chief medical officer of health, the, the,
the rollercoaster that comes from outbreaks are, are the ones about, making
sure that you can stand up in front of all of your staff and say, we have
enough equipment. We have enough, like gowns, masks, gloves, the right kind of
masks.
We're right here with you. If you get
tired, we'll, you know. Put in other staff. Our. I have to say that our
environmental staff. Have been absolutely outstanding working double shifts
coming in on their days off protecting the residents and the staff. Our
longterm care home, I think was built in 1890 we've got an application into the
ministry to move to another site.
And we were actually at hope to have a
shovel in the ground by now, but with the change of government and other
things, COVID being one of them. It's kind of got in the way of it, but our
longterm care home sparkles some days and it's, you know, 110 years old. Like
there's just the pride of, of work in, it's people that have been working at
Providence care have been here for more than 50% of our staff have been here
for more than 10 years.
So their commitment, dedication for serving
the vulnerable. In both of our Haas, in our, in our new hospital, which is
completely opposite to our longterm care home. And then in the longterm care
home, it is just admirable. I get humbled every day coming to work and one day
last week, Myself and the VP for the longterm care home went over and screened
in all this stuff and screened them out, looked at the, you know, the checklist
had changed that day for what the symptoms were and taking everybody's
temperature with infrared temperature gun that I never learned to use.
I'm still, you know, I've got one of those
old thermometers at home that you stick under your tongue. So all that, I mean,
that's not hard equipment to learn, but, the important. The importance of.
Active vigilant screening and making sure that people understand the severity
of, of what we're doing, which they do.
I, I can honestly say that, and then I come
back to the hospital and that's where this office is, and it was designed
according to PTAC standards, so you can barely get to a patient bed here. We're
the only hospital in Canada that has individual patient rooms. And you've got
to walk by us by a hand sanitizer.
And then a sink to get to the patients. So
if you don't wash your hands, there's something that you've missed along the
way and choose should hand back your, you should get your tuition money back
cause you should have failed nursing. We audit for hand hygiene. We, we. Put up
our key performance indicators on monitors all over the place.
Our hand hygiene started to drop when we
moved to the new hospital because our infection prevention and control
physician, infectious diseases, doctor J Gerald Evans said, people kind of get
this halo that when you're in a new shiny place, they're there. Past habits start
to, so a couple of summers ago, we put a full court press back on hand hygiene
and got our numbers from 63% back up to in the nineties and we're really
serious about that and have been, and the month of March we were at a hundred.
That's how, how vigilant and important, we
made hand hygiene, our occupational health and safety division and our
infectious disease division. Had COVID the radar from January. So they started
talking to the management team at our team forums about being prepared and what
does that mean, and making sure that we had enough PPE.
We never let our pandemic supplies go down.
We never took that money out of the budget. So the saving grace for us was that
not only did we have an excellent team to support the frontline nursing staff,
we had the equipment to do the job. And then in our hospital because of its
design and because of the, we decided to follow the directives from the
ministry that came out on March the 10th into the hospital because we felt our
patients were just as vulnerable here and we locked down external visitors.
Our environmental staff in less than 24
hours, built Plex, weaker glass screens at every door for us to screen. Like
just, they, they almost didn't have to be asked. We said, how are we going to
do this? They went. We'll build just screens. You know, before we were, all of
the plexiglass went up in every grocery store and every other hospital we had
them, like on March the 11th we had Plexiglass screens everywhere.
Like they were just all about safety,
protecting the patients and protecting the staff. And, and from my perspective,
I, I couldn't have wanted anything more. And. As a nurse that leads the
corporation. It's very satisfying to see all the physicians, all the nurses,
all the staff, the recreation staff, the environmental staff, the food services
staff, all wrapping around the nursing staff that are putting themselves in the
way of COVID.
And we've had four outbreaks. Right. So now
our last outbreak is a weak, positive, a false positive. Or maybe it was even,
no, not a positive OEC.. so we all, felt that, it was very important that that.
False positive, not positive, weak, positive.
We are calling it now or a mock disaster
because it really made us think, you can't rest on your heels with this. It's
everywhere. Could come in at any time. We have outbreaks around the region.
Kingston itself sent a bit of a bubble. We're not, we're not satisfied with
that. We want to make sure that we're vigilant.
It's tough. It's really hard. Like, yeah.
Like I'm still at work and most nights I leave at nine and I get here at seven
30 in the morning, and it's just all the emails that you have to do at the end
of the day because you're on teleconference all day long, or you're talking to
people or families that call you like you have to talk to people through this.
Communication is key.
Mary Wheeler: So how are you taking care of yourself? This is a, this is. You've
just described a situation, a story, a scenario to me and I say to as how, and
I would ask both your Gina and Claudine, how are you? Take us what you really
are in your own way, whether it's the CEO, whether it's leadership in peel
region, whether it's leadership in the hospital.
These are unbelievable roles that you're
playing. And what it shows me in whatever way is amazing leadership. you
wouldn't have the responses you're having, if each of you weren't playing at
being amazing leaders, but taking, putting the job aside, cause you're, you're,
you're competent. You're on the learning curve.
But I'd be just curious, how are you taking
care of yourself.
Cathy Szabo: Well, I, you know, things happen. Like last week I was driving home.
I got a flat tire and I had to drive on the rubber donut for eight hours to get
back to my house in Toronto. That's a lot of relaxation, meditation time that I
can pick me up something in the car, like I do use my trips back and forth to
think.
And to not be engaged. I mean, the odd time
somebody will call me and, and they're, they, they have every, every
opportunity to do so. My cell phone number is everywhere here, and if anybody
wants to call, they can. I think I have, I come from strong stock. You know, my
mum, I know your mouse. She's going to be 90 this year.
She's really ticked that she can't golf in
her golf week this year because they're there. There's no social time. You
know, you can get a tee off time and go, but she goes, that's not why I golf. I
golf to talk to people. She still drives and now we've bought her an automatic
lawnmower. She wants to start cutting her own lawn cause the guy's not
dependable.
So I think family means a lot.
Yeah. My daughters are just incredible.
They call me, one's a physician and one practices health law. So I'm, I'm very
relieved that they're both employed. They haven't faced some of the same. economic
hardship that other people have. We FaceTime, we talk on the phone, the
grandkids get on the WhatsApp.
So I get to see them, even if I can't touch
them and give them a hug. I think that, there's, there's, Family and friends
are very important. I'm really upset. I haven't been able to go to the gym
because it's closed, but we have an exercise room here and they closed it. And
I said to my VP in charge of it, I said, if I'm not at my desk in the morning,
come to the gym and check me because I don't care.
My card still works. I'm going to go down
and row and and walk. But of course, I never got there. I never got off off the
tele calls today to do that. But I try and, and, and I think. The, my personal
values or my attitude about, trying to do the very best. I, I know, like it's
devastating when you get an outbreak.
It's just absolutely soul crushing and
everybody here's deflated, but you have to say it. Everybody, okay, we did the
best. We screened hard. Now let's make sure we don't transmit it and how do we
do this? It's, it's just being positive that we'll get through this. Now
they're saying out here, well, you know, you haven't hit the first wave like
everybody else.
You're going to get crushed in the second
wave. We don't want to do that either, but yeah. But I think just being
comfortable knowing when to reach out and to talk to other people or to get the
help you need, whether it's about, you know, can somebody run down to the cafe
and get me a salad for lunch, or always having good food in them.
In the freezer. I find if I don't have
healthy food around and I start grabbing cookies or chocolates cause there's
tons of that around now. Everything, baking and bringing stuff in, I don't feel
any better. And I try to sleep every night at least seven and a half hours.
That's important. But I try
Mary Wheeler: Georgina, so how do you take care of yourself through all this?
Georgina
MacDougall: be grateful. Every morning I wake up,
well, look for beauty in nature, whether I usually take the GO train in, but,
I've been driving in and it's been an absolute dream. I, I'm, it's usually
three hours a day like that down to under. Under about an hour and a half. no,
it's, it's lovely. It feels very civilized.
Yeah. I'm so grateful for that. big network
of friends that I've stayed connected with. Certainly my family. being the only
person in healthcare, in my friends circle, my close friend circle in my
family. I often feel like I'm the. The voice of reason and people off the
ceiling because of what they're hearing on the news.
Also, the voice of reality. you know, this
isn't going away in two weeks. This isn't going away. Next month, this is going
to come back next fall.
And feeling that that's not, that's not
comforting to me, but that, I guess that's just another stress. So I'm going to
work, as I say, working in infectious diseases, I'm around experts and, and I'm
looking to them for their reassurance, I guess is, Doing some mindfulness. I
wish I was more physically active. I definitely have put on more weight,
because I, I used to walk up from union station to sick kids. That was my, now
I walk to my car from my car to my office and back to those. and the weather's
not been very cooperative. yeah.
So unfortunately. Food is my comfort. So
Mary Wheeler: yeah,
Georgina
MacDougall: but prayer, meditation, trying to find,
comedians on Netflix so I can laugh and
Mary Wheeler: yeah,
Georgina
MacDougall: the amount of news I watch that's
started early. My husband literally, cause he's been working from home, is watching
the news still way too much. and I just like, I need an hour and that's all I
can do and I'm done.
Mary Wheeler: So Claudine, how are you take caring, taking care of you?
Claudine Bennett: I don't know. I'm not, I'm not a very good, I'm not very good at
routines ever, so I don't have, I don't have a really. Great routine. I, you
know, I like to eat healthy, but finding it extremely challenging right now,
but the long hours, and my husband has a crazy schedule right now, so, you
know, Eva, as much as we might.
Yep. Get to the grocery store and get some
food. Nobody's got time for the meal prep. So I'm at the region, actually right
now, our meals are getting provided, so that's really nice. but they're not
hugely balanced. So, you know, I'm, have what I can there that, that, That I
totally appreciate and is helpful.
we also have a lot of chips and things
around, so I find myself kind of munching on those. I gave up coffee. I
actually had to give up coffee. That was something I had to do for myself
because I, I haven't quite figured it out, but I think the natural adrenaline
that I have running through my veins right now because of like the
hypervigilance and just.
You know, in logistics, everything's urgent
and needs to get done yesterday. so I just kind of feel like I'm always at this
state of like needing to like, run, you know, fight or flight is there. So I
was finding the coffee was just really bad, making me feel, extra, extra
anxious. So, so I gave up coffee and I feel way better since I.
I stopped drinking coffee and I actually
take a lot of, it gives me a lot of joy to recognize other people. So I find
myself being very intentional about making sure. People on my team feel
appreciated. that people, just that I just, I think, you know, I know how much
I appreciate right now how hard I'm working and when somebody takes a moment
to, To say thank you, or to be really specific about a thing that you did and
all that good stuff we learn in leadership, and actually doing that. so I don't
know, I don't know if you can call that self care, but maybe that's part of it
being a nurse is caring for others is part of caring for yourself.
And that just seems to, it gives me like a
lot of comfort.
Yeah. That.
Mary Wheeler: And what I, what I love, Claudine, is your point is that is also
being honest.
Here's, here's my reality. I can't eat
maybe healthy. So it's not, you know, be berating yourself to say, this is the
situation I'm in. What's the, you know, what's one,
a couple of things I could do, not,
Again, listening to people feeling guilty,
like not feeling guilty for, here's the reality we're in right now. And,
knowing for each, like I love how each of you find different ways to deal with
the stressors in your day.. I'd be curious and just thinking we're going into
nurse's week next week because we've got such an amazing opportunity for you on
this, on this chat.
what, where are you seeing nursing right
now? What advice to the collective that you're, you're in it in the thick of
it. in each of your, areas, what advice or what do we need to pay attention to?
What does nursing need to be attentive to going forward.
Maybe I'll start with you, Cathy.
Cathy Szabo: I am, I think we need to, build more nursing leadership or profile
it more.
I think that, certainly in our long-term
care home, the nursing leadership there is outstanding, but they're very humble
people and they do a great job. In our hospital because it's. Neuro rehab,
mental health, complex care. There's a lot more demonstrated. allied health
leadership, like the rehab OT, PT, crew, you can see leaders all over the
place.
It's, it's hard to find the nursing leaders
here. And we've been trying to, where we've now, Linked up, there's a new
associate Dean at Queens, Ernest Clark from east. And, we, we've hooked her
into Providence care and it's been great. So, she's offered nurse practitioners
for our extra beds and, her and I are probably going to do some research
together on something, but.
There was very strong physician leadership
in Kingston because of Queens and Simo and all the physicians that are here,
they try to take over. There's not a lot of nursing leadership that, that is
demonstrable other than me. And, I, I was pleased cause I was on a panel, a
bullet round panel at the school of policy and the result of these physicians
and Dr. David Walker was the organizer of all of this. And whenever I introduce
myself, I introduce myself, president CEO, and I say, I'm a nurse. And when we
were recruiting the new Dean of medicine, I made sure that they knew that I was
a nurse when I was running a hospital. And it's interesting cause when he
introduced me, he's on my board.
He's, he said very, supportively and
proudly, and she's a nurse. She's the only one on this panel you need to listen
to. And he said that to everybody because he says, I listened to her all the
time, but I think there's, there's, I still, you know, in all the years I've
been in nursing, physicians tend to take the spotlight, and I kept saying to
them, we do very well in Canada about medically diagnosing and treating people,
but when it comes to their activities of daily living and helping them be
healthy. That's nursing. And I have a daughter who's a physician and I, I have
this discussion with her all the time too, right?
But when I listened to her talking to her
patients, I know, I know I had an impact and an influence on her because what
she talks about isn't just medically diagnosed, right. People. Right. But it
somehow, we can't seem to break through that healthcare wall that. That it's
all about physicians first. And I would say that, they're, they may be a little
bit better organized than us, and they have a lot more money to play with than
we do. And they provide scholarships and funding and salaries to send their
physicians to leadership courses. And they don't have to. Budget down to the
last dollar like nurses do. And here they are taking all the hospitals' CEO
jobs in Ontario. Every time one comes up, a boy doctor gets it, you know? So I
don't know where nursing is and all this, and, and I would suggest I'm on.
A fair amount of phone calls with Doris
Grisman from RNAO. And I'm, and I'm not sure, nurses are getting the kind of
respect that they deserve for all the hard work that they do. And I don't know
how to change that. And I've been trying for years, you know.
Gail Donner:, I'd be interested, actually, Cathy, maybe if Georgina and Claudine
could. weigh in on this issue of leadership because there will be lessons
learned and there will be lessons learned about how we as a collective of all
providers and professionals and, and families and whatever have managed and
what we've done well and where we could learn.
And on the one hand, I'm, I would say.
Listening to the three of you, we have amazing examples of leadership right
here, but I also know, and I know if we push further on this, each of you will
say, where is everybody? There are, you know how many nurses in Ontario, a huge
number, a hundred thousand whatever it is.
Where, are they in terms of voice and in
terms of leadership, not just leadership in the profession, but leadership in
health, leadership in, in improving the lives of citizens. However, people like
to do it. So maybe I know we don't have a lot more time left, and if it's okay,
since you gave it to me, Mary and Georgina could weigh in just a couple of
minutes on.
Is this something that we need to pay
attention to going forward? Which is a little bit what I heard from you, Cathy,
because I know, Oh, everybody can identify with the scenario you described. but
is this something we have to pay attention to? Are we okay in this area? I'd be
interested. Because to me, I think what we have these sweet, great leaders,
Whitefield, let's see what they think about leadership.
So, I don't know, Georgina, you started, it
doesn't matter who
Georgina
MacDougall: I was, you know, I think, nursing is,
we're the quiet leaders where the, you know, because we are the front line and,
you know, we, we.
We spend more time with the patient then
than we do the physician. and I think building our voice is. Is tantamount.
You know, we need to be able to speak, and
I feel blessed working in an institution where nursing has always been
recognized. That was one of my draws coming to sick kids is the encouragement
to speak up. And if I'm not happy with something to take it to the next level.
So, I think within the profession, I think we do a disservice by not
recognizing and not cultivating nurses. We look solely at the education level
and not so much at the qualities of leadership. and, and building, from the
inside out. You know, we keep, we keep, we're really almost following the
medical model. We need to have more and more and more credentials. You know, to
be before you can be recognized as a leader. And I think that's a, that's a
major disservice, to, to the profession. because I think there's a lot of
natural leaders, that just need to be mentored and, cultivated from within.
Claudine Bennett: So I, I would concur with both Cathy and Georgina in terms of the
importance of nursing, nursing leadership, I think, I don't think always our,
you know, our structures are such that, You know, I'm, I'm not saying
leadership and, you know, having a high CEO kind of position are necessarily
synonymous, but certainly having visibility at that, you know, at the CA CEO
type level where Cathy is, or, you know, in, director positions, VP positions
and things like that are important.
I know in public health, There's lots of
great nursing leaders, both at the front line, you know, at the supervisor,
manager, director level. But the, the leadership in a public health unit is
largely men doctors.
So, when, when doctors join a public health
unit, they often are at a, at a very high status position, right away, and so,
you know, I'm not saying that there isn't really good respect for the nursing
leaders, but that structure, tends to, to make doctors very important, right
from the outset. and. If you don't mind, I wouldn't mind. I really liked the
other question about what does, what do nurses need now or what does nursing
need now?
And just, I was kind of thinking about my
answer to that. So if you don't mind, I kinda answered that question.
One of the things I've been encouraging
with my team this is going to be a thing we're going to say now, right? was,
was really encouraging my, my team, many of whom are experts in their work and
have been doing similar work for many years.
to be like really encouraging them to be.
Flexible and agile and figuring out the ways that they could best manage
change. Because all of us,, all of us respond to change differently. We all
know this, and I happened to be, one of these people who thrives on change. I'm
always looking for,, a new thing or,, wanting to get it.
Educated in something else or try something
new or, and change doesn't really impact me in a negative way, but I do know
that some people really struggle with it. So,, I think my message to nurses
right now at this moment is, do, do what you need to do to be able to be as
agile and flexible as you can right now and figure out how you can best manage
change.
Because, we're in it, we're in it. And I
know, at least in my organization right now, we are asking people to change on
a dime. in this response in public health, our public health nurses might do
two or three different kinds of jobs in a three month span, just as the
response changes are, or what the need is based on what's happening out in the
community.
And, and it's tough., to learn a new job
every three weeks. but it is what's needed right now. And, that's part of the
reason I feel like, really, boosting the troops and making feel people feel
good about the work that they're doing is so important right now.
Mary Wheeler: Well, I have to say Claudine. I'm watching the chat on the webinar.
And it must be one of your staffers as it is, as an observer.
And she says, "yeah, no, I can attest
to Claudine's wonderful way of acknowledging people. And she works. She works
with, I'm honored with just logistics team at peel health, and her drive is
infectious."
So just what you are, yo, it's like words
into action.
I just was watching that get posted prior
to you. You talking.
I'm staring out. I'm just am catching at
this beautiful moon. I dunno if anybody can see outside this most amazing moon
in the sky. And
I think, Claudine, when you
talked
about like, we're in it, like the sky is
here,
the moon is here, we're in it.
I guess in, in bringing, not some close,
but just I'd be really interested, as colleagues to colleagues of, what's one
thing you discovered or learned about yourself through this?
Claudine Bennett: I can share because I know right away.
I have way more capacity than I ever imagined.
I had no idea I could actually work this
hard and for this long and still stand. And have this many things in my brain
all at once and learn so many things and still actually managed to, feel good
at the end. Most days, not every day, but most days feel really good about what
I accomplished in that day.
Mary Wheeler: Yeah. Yeah. Georgina..
Georgina
MacDougall: I think just the, reinforcement that,
of the community at large of acknowledging healthcare. cause I don't think most
people think about healthcare workers unless they're immersed in a crisis with
their immediate family or,, and so to hear. the outpouring of, of recognition,
is quite inspiring to me.
Mary Wheeler: And Cathy?
Cathy Szabo: I think I've learned how resilient I really am and how, that the
effect that I've. Been able to have with working with my staff and leading the
organization has, it surprises me when I get a thank you card in the mail or an
email or a family member, send me a note because through this COVID piece, I've
been in the media a fair bit in the last little while and there's more coming
in.
And, the, the people from the media that
call me back and say, we really want to talk to you because you seem to know
what's going on. Or my husband works at women's college and his CEO emailed him
and says, I heard your wife on the radio today, or she seems to understand how
to do this. We wish she was here.
It all like, just nice little things that
come my way. I don't, didn't realize that. The work that I was trying to do every
day to just be a good person and do the right thing was having that kind of
effect on other people. And the role that you play in your organization is so
important because, To be a leader, you need followers. And I, you never know if
you have them in through this COVID thing that the, the, the people that I've
reached out to me have just like, I could cry some days that I'm not touched in
that emotional about it. But I think it's, you need to have a, a sense of
resilience. And I never knew I was as resilient as we've done this through
COVID.
So.
Mary Wheeler: I'm going back to Georgina because, I think you're very unassuming
and I would, I would think you probably have some of the attributes that Cathy
was talking about also, is that you're there for others. And sometimes it's not
seeing it. So I think we all can bring different pieces of understanding of,
what we're learning about ourselves through all this. And I guess the other
thing, Georgina, I'm thinking is. Just when I said to you, Oh, well, don't become
a, don't, you don't want to be an observer.
You want to be a participant and you just
came along. Okay. Mary, I'll be also being open to whatever's going to happen.
Georgina
MacDougall: Yes, yes. I was actually, recognized
for nurses week and so, yeah.
My face will be planted on the daily news
on Monday as a unassuming leader.
Claudine Bennett: congratulations
Mary Wheeler: Gail, it's, we've got a couple of minutes.
Maybe to bring some close or.
Gail Donner: Well, the first thing to say is that I wish we didn't have to end,
really, there've been a couple of comments to this effect on the chat, but you
really have been inspiring and it's done two things for me. One, make me glad
we gave this opportunity because I'm hoping we'll have the opportunity to show
it with larger groups and it will support. When people are inspirational, it
helps other people find meaning, and that's what we're all doing right? By
helping our clients and families find meaning and finding the meaning or self during
difficult times. And that's clearly what you all doing. So I want to say thank
you very much. I also want to say that in terms of closure for this, a huge
thank you, to you for participating and, we all, thinking about the, perhaps at
the end of the month, the final session we would have might be an open session.
And if that is the case, we'd invite you to participate again, if you'd like to
with other colleagues, et cetera.
I really want to say is thank you. Thank
you. Thank you. It was truly inspirational and to wish you lots of luck. Keep
up that fight. I am sure you all will do then you ever did.
On behalf of those who have to stay home and
wish they could be there.
Mary Wheeler: And I think that's the theme coming through on the chats. People just
so inspired by your stories and one ending, like, thank you, happy nurses week
to all of you.
Gail Donner: Bye. Bye. Bye.